Kristi Kendall is the director of Undivide Us, a documentary about political polarization in America, what it does to us, and how to fix it, along with many other productions.

Today, we’re going to be talking about what’s in a documentary, or film generally, that makes it so moving, especially with members of my generation. We talk about  Ludwig von Mises’s human action model, and how it’s actually applicable to inspiring action in media. We discuss how to inspire and make our communication relevant to audiences, and how audiences have changed over time.



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Juliette Sellgren 

Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition. Hi, I'm Juliette Sellgren, and this is my podcast, the Great Antidote named for Adam Smith, brought to you by Liberty Fund. To learn more, visit www Adam Smith works.org.

Welcome back Today on March 14th, 2024. I'm looking forward once again to speaking with Christie Kendall, who is the director of Undivide Us, a documentary about political polarization in America, what it does to us and how to fix it. You can screen it near you if you visit the website. Kristi maybe will offer more information on that in a bit, but today we're going to be talking about something slightly different, but absolutely related, which is how documentary and maybe film generally inspires us and what makes it so moving and how we can learn from it and how it's on the come up. I don't know all of that. I'm really excited about this conversation. So welcome back to the podcast.

This is luck.

That means so much. Thank you. Alright, because you've been on the podcast before, I have some new questions. So the first one is, what has been your primary inspiration and how has it inspired you in your life and in your work? It could be film, media, not any of that. A person, an idea, whatever.

That's so funny. So when you ask the question, I mean, I initially kind of go to my why so highest level stuff, and I think about my kids. I think about I'm most, I have kind of a set of ideas and values that affect then what I want to work on because what's going to make the world the best world it can be for them. But when I really get up every morning and literally it's kind of the thing that decides what projects I'm going to work on and what projects I'm not going to work on is what is this going to do for the world for my kids and their kids and everybody's kids thinking about it with a long view generationally. That's always what I'm thinking about.

I guess this kind of begs the question, especially as I'm standing here childless as my mother would be very proud and happy about at this age. What about before kids? I mean, obviously maybe we should be having kids down the line...

But wait, wait...

But I shouldn't be having a kid now to have a why, so how might I?

Yeah, I think I always was really driven by this idea of how can I use my gifts and talents to make the world a better place? Something that's beyond just where I'm, I've never been a person who's super motivated by power or money or accolades. Even people will make fun of me. I used to be really bad about making sure I even got credits on everything that I worked on. And it's mostly because I really, that is not what motivates me now. I pay more attention to that because I understand that it's a means to an end. Having a credit on something will better position me for being able to do the next thing I want to do, but it's really this higher thing. And even when I started at ABC News 20/20, working as a producer there, I was dating an investment banker at the time who worked a hundred hours a week.

So I just thought, well, I'll just work a hundred hours a week. So I worked an insane amount for a 22-year-old, 23-year-old, 24-year-old, and well in the same amount for any human being I think. But I really just went so deep into each of the issues and was like, oh my gosh, these ideas could get out here. And I was mostly working on kind of ideas that were a little counterintuitive to the prevailing media narratives. And I was like, if these ideas can be more out there, I think the world will be better for it. I think people, even if people didn't agree with whatever the perspective was, having these ideas at least be part of the national dialogue was important to me. So I think that has always kind been, I don't know, I feel like I sound really pollyannish, but it's truly the thing that has driven me my whole life mean it's not pure. I'm not like pure. Your mom will tell you I still like a failure sometimes.

Well, it's pure intent maybe. Maybe. It's funny. Exactly.

It's true. It's true to who I am. It is true to who I am. Yeah.

And I think that the kids thing really embodies that, right? Because the way I kind of think about this is, well, what makes you want the world to be a better place if you felt that even before children? Because to me, having recently read [Edmund] Burke, I recently as a libertarian was faced with this idea that we actually do have a semblance of duty or connection whether we want it or not, to pass generations and future generations. And I think the children point makes that clear because it brings it to the forefront of an individual's life, but it's true of all of us, whether or not we want to realize it. And so I'm kind of wondering, I came to this through Burke, really, but what would you say to those libertarians or even conservatives, just people generally who don't think that there is any sort of duty, or even if you don't believe it's an actual duty connection to the world, and I don't know, the world has an influence on you.

More like a more Randian kind of objective…

I don't owe anyone anything. No one owes a me anything that's not…

It's a pretty dark way to live, right? Because I mean, part of, and this gets back to Undivide Us, right? Part of the core of liberal values is about mutual respect and living in community where we engage with one another, we affect one another. And I think people who are small “l” libertarians or classical liberals tend to say, well, the more local that is, the less big rules affecting me from the top down, the more organic it is from the bottom up, the happier I'm going to be. But nobody exists in a vacuum. It's funny, when I was in college, I had an objectivist roommate for a while. She's totally gone so hardcore the other way now as an adult. And I think that really hardcore objectivism it, it's hard to relate to because it doesn't feel real. Who do you know that lives that way and is super happy about their life?

Yeah, it's almost forced. I've been reflecting on this idea. You're trying a little too hard. And I was there once. I tried a little too hard. I did flirt with objectivism, as I've probably mentioned on this podcast 75 times, as all youth.

Yes, as all youth must.

Sometimes you're a communist, sometimes you're an objectivist. It just depends on something. 

Honestly, Juliette, I think Juliette, I think if I went back, the internet didn't really, social media definitely didn't exist when I was your age. And if it had, I kind of think somebody would've been able to track me in all sorts of really hardcore positions that I've taken. I think that the benefit of age also lets you think about, okay, well how do these ideas actually apply to my life, to the world I see around me? What do I really care about the most in terms of what are the things that are going to, and I have really deeply held principles, but I try to think about them in the context of that broader intellectual marketplace of ideas as well.

Because you don't exist in a vacuum.

No, I don't. Anyway. Maybe there are some people that do, but not this girl. I live in Brooklyn…

The epitome of exactly...

Not a vacuum.

So I kind of want to pull on this thread that'll kind of take us more explicitly into the episode content, which is this idea of relatability.

Human connection and being able to relate and sympathize is super important, especially post covid where I'm in a labor economics class and we're writing this survey for class about workplace preferences and how they've changed over time and looking at what younger people entering the job market want from their employers. And our theory is that we as a generation are demanding more investment on behalf of older people into us, more explicit and career oriented, but also this philosophical non isolation community thing that people used to think you couldn't get from work. And that's essentially a long way of saying that we feel really alone and the statistics kind of show this. And so I'm kind of wondering if you've seen that as a director of things and kind of how the audience has changed over time. And maybe this is true of everyone who lived through Covid and just the political time, you made a whole documentary about what is going on in America today. So I don't know, how are we feeling? How has the audience changed?

Yeah, no, I actually think that your question, and I'm so interested that I love to see what comes back from the survey data that yes, yes, we're feeling alone. Yes, we're feeling isolated. And part of the point of the documentary is that actually the media narratives around us actually drive us further and further into those feelings and into those bubbles essentially. And part of the whole thing, these people, if you watch the documentary, you see that we bring together these focus groups of people who are super skeptical of each other when they walk into the room and then when they leave, we couldn't get them to leave the room. They just wanted to keep talking. And I was like, okay, we've got another group of people coming in. You've been here three hours, please go home. But Ben actually one of the co-host of the doc, he called it a cathartic experience for people.

And they were legitimately exchanging phone numbers. I mean, there's a hunger for that human interaction. I mean, it's interesting to add to your labor economics things. I've seen some recent studies on aging and loneliness, and there are all these benefits of where you're actually healthier, you live longer, all these things of having community. And I think part of what the movie is saying is like, yeah, and don't let that community be like people who all think just like you because you're scared that they're going to be mean to you if they find out you are a Second Amendment advocate and they hate guns or whatever. And the fact of the matter is that most, the vast majority of Americans actually can deal with people who think things differently than themselves and not have their heads explode. And that's the theme.

And I think something that I've been using… 

Lemme answer your question though, but does that answer your question, do you think?

Yes. Yeah, and I think it does, and I think we're going to continue to get into it as we keep going, but that's perfect. Something that I've been observing recently is that not only are we craving community, but that we're actually as classical liberals and just generally people who usually, I dunno, can we say that we pedal in the market of ideas? Is that a valid way to say it? 

I love thinking that I pedal in the marketplace of ideas. That's what I live for. Yes. 

Meddler. Is that an occupation? I'm a Pedaler.

In the marketplace of ideas. I buy that. Yeah, hardcore.

Yeah. So I think something that, and we were talking a little bit about this earlier, something that I've been noticing first that makes me feel bad about myself as someone who is hopeful in terms of my career aspects in or prospects, not aspects in going into this field. And also as someone who wants a sense of meaning and purpose and is looking at these current peddlers of ideas and asking, well, what can you tell me about my standing in the world today and how the world is doing? I think those are kind of the questions we're asking whether or not we're super conscious of it.

I think that your inspiration though, comes from emotional connection. It comes from people being willing to take different stances. I mean, you and I have talked about how is this movie different from a lecture where the lecture is trying to educate you or convince you of something, this kind of content, the kind of content that I try to make is really trying to inspire you through human story that is based in fact. And I do think the content landscape is tricky because I come at this stuff from a real journalistic standpoint where it's like I have a whole, there's research behind everything in the documentary, and I'm proud of that, but there is a lot of content that it's created that doesn't have a lot of research behind it, and it's hard to tell the difference. And so I think actually that that's a case for more principled storytellers in the marketplace of ideas. And if you want to become one, come on baby, let's do it because I think you would be great at it.

I cried on the podcast. That's really, really good.

Yeah, I think we all should be Trying to think. It's funny, my company, Kristi Kendall and company is the kicker line is, “connecting hearts and minds to ideas that matter.” And actually, I actually think that we all need to think a lot more about that than we do. Being right. Doesn't really matter if you're just in a little circle by yourself saying, I'm so right.

Awesome. I'm alone, but at least I'm right. No one says that.

No one ever, right?

Yeah.

I think that if we care about ideas and if we care about, and this movie's about basic ideas of liberalism, but if we care about these ideas, we have to be thinking about creative, interesting, emotionally connected ways to move folks. And I think your generation is sometimes people, I think of it as a lost cause. I, I don't, but I think that there is that attitude out there.

A hundred percent. And I kind of remember where I was going earlier is that. But it was entirely because of what you said. So thank you. So we have this marketplace of ideas and even though we, especially I think my generation and just people today generally are craving this meaning, this emotional connection, this community, when we're offered opportunities to engage with it, for the most part we don't or we walk out uninspired. And I think something that your movie and just a lot of documentary style storytelling has really accomplished in a way that other forms of engagement haven't recently, is actually gaining that engagement. Because if you don't get the people engaged, then you can't actually give them what they ask for, which is all of these values, this community, this purpose, this connection, this inspiration. And so I kind of wanted to ask you what you thought was so successful about the documentary in itself, but also as a form of communicating these ideas and what can we learn from that? Big question.

It's such a funny question for me because my producers will tell you that working with me, I constantly see room for improvements. So it's hard for me to, I do think so I'm not going to toot my own horn about how great the documentary is, but I do. I will. Okay. But what I do think is important is I think is really thinking about your audience and their experience and helping your audience see themselves in their journey in whatever story you're telling. I feel like we did really consciously do that in terms of, in all kinds of ways, in terms of the language, the setup, making it beautiful, making it approachable, helping feel like the characters, you understand them enough, I mean all the things. And I think that's what good storytellers do is they try to engage their audiences that way. A lot of times I teach some storytelling, and I actually go back to the human action model, which is who thought you'd go back to a dead white economist who wrote a pretty thick impenetrable book for storytelling advice.

But I go back to the human action model. What is helping your audience really feel invested in? What's the dissatisfaction with the current state? What's their vision of a better state? And how do you get between the two places? What's going to get me there? Do I have the tools? Do I have the knowledge? Do I have the wherewithal? Is this actually possible for me? And so that's actually, I think if more of us did a little more of that, even in, I got to tell you, even in those lectures that you're talking about that don't inspire you very much, I think if folks really thought about the human action model a little bit more, they might actually convince more hearts and minds and humanizing all of the storytelling, actually seeing people who feel real and authentic, telling real and authentic stories. And I think it's important that those stories are reflective of actually broader social trends. That's the journalist in me, but I think that's always going to do better.

Can you explicitly lay out what the human action model is and who this old dead white economist you're talking about is?

Oh, really? Okay. So Ludwig von Mises, he wrote a book, that guy, that guy, he wrote a book called Human Action, and it's a million pages long. I actually am looking to see if I have it on my desk in front of me. I don't, but it's a pretty thick book and I'll summarize it for you in three sentences. It said that in order to get any human being to do anything, there are any, take any human action, you have to have three things. And he said they have to understand or be dissatisfied with their current state. They have to have a vision of their better state, and then they have to have a pathway to get there. And you can talk about your decision to make and eat a sandwich in terms of the human action model, you have to be dissatisfied. I am hungry.

You have to have a vision. I am not hungry. I have eaten. And then a pathway, you have to have sandwich making equipment or a kitchen or you have to have the tools to get there. And then you can blow that out into all kinds of different places. Like with documentary, what's the dissatisfaction with the current state, the toxic media, people feeling like they can't talk to one another and this circus that is a negative death spiral. That's my dissatisfaction with the current state vision of a better state. People can talk to each other, mutual respect. People aren't ready to kill each other. It's like positive community engagement. And then how do we get there? That's what the documentary is trying to show is here are some ideas of actually things all of us can do. Here's ways it could work. So I mean that's, here's what it looks like for this person. Here's what it could look like for this person.

And it's so usable. I'm thinking already about how I'm going to use it when I teach and lecture and how that will actually help my students not only get better grades, but clearly actually understand and appreciate economics for what it is dissatisfaction was and why we wanted a model for this sort of thing in the first place. And maybe even then the dissatisfaction with that model and why we have a new one in the second place, I guess not the first place.

Yeah, totally. Totally.

So when I'm thinking about, especially in the Liberty movement and kind of trying to inspire younger people to maybe not take the consulting job, I'm looking at myself right now as an example, not take the consulting job and maybe instead work in policy. Even though a lot of people are really politics oriented nowadays instead of other things, which is a whole other situation,

Fewer the Liberty pipeline is shriveling. There are fewer students and prospective job candidates that I think are interested in working in this space than ever before. And I think part of it is that maybe if we're looking at the human action model, we're getting, I think the documentary does a good job, but in terms of pulling people to work in this space, we're getting the dissatisfaction part wrong. We're not pulling at the heartstrings because we don't, I say the big we is whoever is hiring slash losing out to stuff like consulting and finance and whatever. And maybe I'm wrong about that, but do you think that we're getting the dissatisfaction wrong, that we're not adequately for the most part, identifying what people want and what's missing? Or is it a vision thing?

I think it's probably a vision thing, actually. I mean, I don't know. I tend to move towards things that I'm inspired by. I'm kind of self-reflecting as I am thinking about answering your question. I mean, I guess, I don't know, it could be any of the parts. They could be feeling like they don't have the tools. They could be feeling like, well, what can I do about it feeling like they've been so uninspired by everything that they've seen so far that nothing will matter. Anyway, I don't know. My big answer to you is I do not know.

Which is a totally acceptable and very classical liberal answer. Wonderful.

I think it's an interesting question and an interesting conversation to be having because if the outcome you're looking for is to increase the action of people moving into the marketplace of ideas and being excited by that, if that's the action you're looking for, they need to understand all these three pieces have to be there, in my opinion.

Yes.

But I just don't know what the answer is.

So kind of moving back to talking about documentaries. Recently you produced another documentary which is yet to be seen on the public stage maybe soon. I walked out of that showing a shedding a few tears and be so inspired because what the documentary did, mini documentary you might want to call it, is actually teach me things I didn't know about the space I was operating in and who I could be and what was possible in the liberty movement, in the policy space, in the marketplace of ideas. And I think we've kind of talked about this documentaries move and inspire in the positive direction instead of hitting on this dissatisfaction. So I think you might be right that it is maybe more of vision thing. So I don't know, does that mean you're going to be making more documentaries given that.

I am going to keep making documentaries as long as people keep wanting them? For sure. This is my jam helping doing. When you told me about your, so I'm going to back up and just say a little more about that doc that inspired. That was about, it was a short about, it was about 15 minutes about a guy named David Boaz who, and it was for his big birthday celebration at the Cato Institute. And he's literally dedicated the past almost 50 years of his life to creating the Cato Institute with Ed Crane and shepherding it and really helping grow it into the place it is now with high standards, but a real appreciation for ideas. And David's way of he's, he's witty. I mean, he's just so, he's such an interesting character and he is a gay man who was fighting for his own rights and the rights of others all along the way. It's easy to be inspired by him. And so that was just a really fun story to tell. But I end up feeling that way about any documentary I agree to take on because I am so blessed that I only work on stuff that I really feel really called to and that I feel like I'm going to actually really make a positive impact on. So I love getting to do what I get to do. It's the best, and I loved making that doc. It was a privilege I had actually, I interned for David when I was in college and it was a real full circle moment, so that was awesome.

I felt more than just appreciative for the wonderful man and the virtues he carries with him in his everyday life, but kind of this understanding of even what it means to shape an institution and how institutions can live past you. The reason why everyone at Cato dresses nice is all because of David Boaz. All these little minute details that you do not think matter are actually so important because when you understand the reason why a rule is the way it is or a culture is the way it is, I think it allows you to appreciate so much more. And so the fact that, I don't know, I walked out shocked that no one made a bigger deal about this before. And so I don't know. I'm kind of wondering, do we just need to realize as hopeful movers and shakers in this ideas marketplace that actually understanding what makes people feel and what makes people understand and appreciate is maybe different from statistics or graphs? I say this as a self-criticism because economists love graphs. 

Yeah listen, I love a great graph. I think that they're important, but they're not going to move. The needle culture eats statistics for lunch culture and how we feel about things and these broader social trends that you were pointing out earlier around loneliness, around community, around connection, around feeling like we can be empowered and achieve all the things we want in our lives, these are, and that our children can, and that the people we care about are going to be safe. These are kind of, it's like a little Maslow's hierarchy. It's like we have to think about what's actually driving people to make decisions then in terms of what they're going to do and why they're going to do it. And I don't think a lot of people make big decisions about what they're going to do and why they're going to do it based on a graph, but I think they might make decisions like that based on an example that they saw from someone else's life by an inspiration, by a deep seated feeling, by something that resonated within them. Those are pretty important things. More of that, yeah.

More of that. I want to ask what I should do about it, but first I kind of want to ask you for a moment of self-reflection. Obviously you mentioned earlier you are drawn and can work on projects that you actually feel connected to and compelled to work on.

 No, and that's the privilege it, it's an earned privilege as I was talking to my friend about this whole concept of privilege, but I am very lucky for that, and I am very grateful.

How much do you think, so you mentioned the human action model and all of this and being thoughtful and intentional with the way that you do your work. How aware were you and how conscious were you of not just the effect that a documentary would have, but of maybe the way that you portray things when you're doing it? Maybe the better way to say it is, what is your thought process in producing something and how? 

The creation process, I mean, for me, it's totally collaborative in every sense of the word. From the director of photography, the producers, the people on set, then what we choose to put the edit in. The edit and the writing. And then also on the other side of it, the audience. We actually did test screenings with folks and ask people, well, did this work? What didn't land? What didn't land? And then I would go back and change things based on that. I don't approach content creation, and this is just my idiosyncrasy. I approach it. I'm interested in the ends, right? I'm interested in the marketplace of ideas and seeing how are these ideas going to get out there and land and if whatever my idea for how that should have happened isn't working, I'm interested in changing that. You know what I mean? I'm interested in the feedback and in making it better, and I don't think I have all the answers, and I actually think that my willingness to do that is actually a huge strength in this field in general.

And the reason why I'm telling you this is because I want to encourage more young people to have a vision. Yeah, really go after it, but also seek feedback from the people in your audience so that you can make sure that what you're trying to do is actually landing. Have the humility to do that. Having a strong dose of humility and that you don't know all the answers, I actually think is part of what can make it good. If you had seen the film that I originally cut, I'm pretty sure you would've been pretty confused and bored out of your mind. You know what I mean?

We all have to.

Improve things.

I was actually, before you called it humility, I was like, that sounds like humility to me.

But it's like humility not put on as an act like, oh, I'm going to be humble. No. It's like, no, I really do believe I don't have all the best answers, and I really care about making this as good as possible for as many people as possible. So let me behave as though I really don't think I know all the answers.

So you mentioned that if I had seen the first iteration that it would've been a lot different. Is this humility with respect to your work, has it been a thing that you've developed or is it kind of been an intrinsic thing to who you are?

I think it was just a thing that was beaten into me because for John Stossel, who is an amazing journalist, but anybody who will tell you he does not suffer fools, and he will tell you when he thinks something is bad or when you've done something wrong. And so I think I just constantly made so many mistakes. I had to eat humble pies so much that I just got used to growing up in my earth. Then I came to appreciate his process, though. John was always a person who would take a good idea from anyone in the room, and I remember this communications flack. I mean, I shouldn't call him a flack. He was just not a very nice man, and we were dealing with a communications thing around a piece that I had produced, and we were riding in the elevator and John were talking and I was listening, and then I said a sentence and he goes, I'm sorry, who are you?

And in a real condescending little girl, go back in your corner and don't talk. Kind of what? And John Stossel went batshit on that guy and he was like, like, you don't treat people like that. This is blah, blah, blah. This is Christie Kendall. She's my producer. She did all the work and he just got how he took it as a personal insult to him. I think almost even, I just remember thinking like, oh my gosh, no one's offended me ever that way before. And anyway, it was just how stale always behaved. I'd never seen him yell at anyone actually, and I'd never seen that since. But what I mean is the virtuous defense aspect, not being like, I'm not going to listen to you because who are you? He would take every good idea from the intern to the executive producer and weigh them with the proper weight that they should have.

An executive producer comes to the table with a lot more experience, has done this a few more times, is going to come to is have perspective based on that, but an intern is also going to have the perspective, a young person. Right. That's really interesting. We value all these things, and anyway, I try to do that with my content always is to try to take those perspectives and to try to welcome them in and feel out ways that I can get the most feedback as possible to try to improve the content. At the end of the day, no, do I do a perfect job of it? Absolutely not. But I try my best all the time, and then at some time you have to be like, okay, we're making changes now and we're going to just get this out the door. That's an important thing.

Yes. Is that your advice then for young people and even people who are currently working in any sort of market where people need to be inspired or are trying to inspire the people around them, especially as we have depression and isolation and all the stuff we talked about before, which is not so fun, is that really, is that not all we need to do, but is that the most important piece of how to move forward and to make sure that we have this humility about us as we create and inspire and all of that?

I think if you can summon the bravery for the criticism, which is what it is, right? You're putting your babies, your darlings out there to be criticized, it's going to make them much stronger at the end of the day and you're going to actually achieve your goals more. Yes, do that if you can or do it in small ways, maybe do it with, I mean, there's a million ways now that we can get feedback on stuff. I have a piece that I'm working on right now where a couple of professors are showing it to some of their students, but then I also sent it to a couple of trusted colleagues who I've worked with in the past and said, Hey, can you tear this up for me? Is there anything that takes you out of the moment? What works, Juliette? I should send it to you and get your feedback.

I would be honored.

I think that that's how we all learn and grow, and that's actually the purpose of the marketplace of ideas is to be open to challenge and critique and improvement always. And I mean any of us thinking that we have all the answers is just silly.

Yes, I think you're right. Believe that you're right, but also believe that you're probably wrong about something.

Exactly. Oh my gosh, that is so well said. Nice.

Thanks. Probably took it from someone who knows. 

No, but that’s good. That's really good. I like that.

Thanks. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I've really enjoyed it. Listeners, go check it out. Great. I have one final question for you. What do you think is the most underrated piece of media and why?

It's so funny? That's a funny question because my gut reaction is such a boomer answer, and I'm not a boomer. I'm younger than that, but it's is Facebook. Facebook gets such a bad rap over and over and over, but I think it's a really interesting melting pot of political, social, personal, like the commentary, the celebration, and all kinds of bad things. But if you say what's the most underrated, I think it gets a lot of shade. I think Facebook is my vote. Sorry if that is offensive.

Once again, I'd like to thank my guests for their time and insight. I'd also like to thank you for listening to the Great Antidote Podcast. It means a lot. The Great Antidote is sound engineered by Rich Goyette. If you have any questions, any guests or topic recommendations, please feel free to reach out to me at great antidote@libertyfund.org. Thank you.